with Ruth Sacksteder, LDE Founder
Long-time lucid dreamer and founder of The Lucid Dream Exchange, Ruth Sacksteder, has kindly agreed to be interviewed for LDE #24. A resident of the Bay Area, Ruth has promoted lucid dreaming through the creation of the LDE, participation in lucid dream experiments, and her own lucid dream group in Berkeley.
<Robert> So Ruth, could you tell us about how you became interested in lucid dreaming and what your first lucid experiences were like?
<Ruth> I had my first lucid dream before I had
heard of the term. That was probably in 1968 or 1969 when I was 24. Some
months before, I had had occasional sleep paralysis/bedroom "visitor"
type experiences. I can't recall the very first lucid dream, but in those
early lucid dreams I was amazed I was doing what I was doing. I felt a
sense of wonder that my mind had fashioned such gorgeous, intricate environments.
I often just looked around. I also enjoyed flying but usually couldn't
fly as high as I would have liked. There were less pleasant sides as well
- intense vibrations and odd phenomena I couldn't comprehend.
I thought I was the only person who had dreams like this. I would ask
peers but at that time never found confirmation from others. In 1974-75,
I was in a class on dreams when I was introduced to the term "lucid
dreaming." I realized that was what I had been doing off and on and
that others had similar experiences.
<Robert> Living in the Bay area, were you able to meet other lucid dreamers and share ideas?
<Ruth> Well, I continued to have spontaneous lucid dreams and went through occasional periods of trying to induce more than I'd ordinarily have. I wrote down most of these dreams. The majority were close to what I would now call semi-lucid.
In the late '80's, through a lucid dreamer friend, I was introduced to Stephen LaBerge's book, Lucid Dreaming, and his work. This came at a time when I was working afternoons and had my mornings relatively free. The book was a great help and gave me some focus in learning lucidity. A few years later I became a member of LaBerge's Oneironautical Research Group at the Lucidity Institute and participated in some of the research projects. Other Bay area contacts were the experienced lucid dreamers, like Linda Magallon and Keelin. I participated in mutual dreaming experiments designed by Linda.
In the early '90's I was also in a correspondence group formed by Lucidity Institute members and thus got to know dreamers in other parts of the country. I enjoy trying experiments in my lucid dreams and did some of my own design as well as those designed by LaBerge, Linda Magallon, Janice Brooks, Jay Vogelsong, and others. Up until 1995 I was working part-time and was able to put a good amount of energy into lucid dreaming research.
<Robert> I see that you have an ad for a lucid dream group in the Dream Network Journal. What has your lucid dream group been like? Is it hard having lucid dreamers at various levels of ability?
<Ruth> Around that time, I had a lucid dream group meeting in my house. Unfortunately, that group no longer meets. The group had about 5 or 6 consistent members as well as others who were more occasional. The group met once a month. I enjoyed having people of all levels of ability and experience. The group was not a course in lucid dreaming but a place for people to share lucid dreams and thoughts about lucidity. We tried occasional experiments. I also liked having people with different approaches and outlooks since I didn't want the group to become a clique.
<Robert> How was it that you began The Lucid Dream Exchange?
<Ruth> In the early '90's there were several lucid dream publications. They presented excellent articles as well as interesting lucid dream research, but they included only a few lucid dreams. Several people told me that they wished there were a magazine comprised of people's actual lucid dreams. I thought that was a good idea and felt as a "group", we lucid dreamers could put out something like that. I intentionally kept it small and intimate. I want to thank all of those people who sent lucid dreams, art work, and poetry to the LDE, as well as those who attempted any of the suggested experiments and sent in their results. I want to add that I am pleased with the current continuation of the LDE and am glad it didn't stop when I could no longer produce it. The new look is great!
<Robert> Often in your lucid dreams, you immediately head for "Apt. #8". How did you become interested in returning to the same dream locale, and what meaning does this have for you?
<Ruth> One lucid dreamer created an analog of her town in her lucid dreams. She was an extremely accomplished lucid dreamer and had amazing consistency of character and locale. In comparison, I was very much a beginner. As an experiment, I decided to create a dream analog of my apartment building and people it with dream characters. I never developed much consistency and eventually used only Apt. 8, which was, in waking life, close to my own apartment and often at that time, vacant. With practice it became pretty easy to get to Apt. 8, if I became lucid in the image of my bedroom.
I used Apt. 8 (that is, dream apt. 8) in various ways
at various times. I made it into what I called the "Dream Learning
Center". For awhile it had an attractive library, though unfortunately
I couldn't read the books. There was another period when a dream analog
of my mother "decided" to live there and happy times when it
was full of gorgeous cats and kittens. There have been odd characters,
too, as well as mirrors for transport (to phase through) and briefly,
a cool slide down into other territory. That was in its heyday, but it
could be vacant as well, dark and empty.
Now lucid dreams are much rarer, and I use Apt. 8 largely as a means to
an end - to switch from local lucid city terrain to something more countrified
and "natural". I go out a door to the side and get to fields,
forests, creeks, and even the sea or at least a more countrified version
of a town. If I had more time and more lucid dreams, I'd love to experiment
again with Apt. 8, but since 1995 I have been working full time, usually
getting up very early. Lucid dreams are more sporadic.
<Robert> Sometimes, I have wondered about your designation of a WILD or wake-initiated lucid dream. How do you distinguish a WILD from a non-WILD lucid dream?
<Ruth> In a WILD you go directly into a dream from being awake and are 'immediately' aware that you are dreaming. In a DILD (dream-initiated), you become aware that you are dreaming some time during the dream.
In a WILD you can be lying in bed awake. You probably become drowsy and are aware you are becoming drowsy. Then suddenly you are in a dream and you know that you are dreaming. You may, for example, watch the dream imagery coming as hypnagogia at first and then find yourself entering one of the images or perhaps you "soar" above the scene a moment before entering. You are aware you are dreaming. At the very least, you suspect it and do an immediate reality test though generally you don't need to.
Local lucids also can be in this category, as well as OBE dreams, assuming you are aware you are dreaming. You may be in bed, awake but drowsy, then suddenly you find yourself standing in the middle of your room. You are immediately aware that you are dreaming or suspect you are and do a reality test to confirm it. You could even be in bed and feel the transition - your body image changing from literal body to dream body. You may experience vibrations, buzzes, or rushes of wind. You may hear disembodied voices or even see people in your bedroom. So you get up out of your (dream) bed and enjoy a local lucid. Other times, you may lie in bed and suddenly "shoot" out of your body and fly through the window or wall into a dreamscape.
In all of the examples, you are aware you are dreaming
from the beginning. There are, of course, gray areas in WILDS as in many
aspects of lucid dreaming. What if there are a few moments before you
realize you are dreaming? What if the scene goes dark and you feel yourself
on your bed but you realize you are not completely awake - then the scene
returns or you get up and have a local lucid? Is that a WILD or a continuation
of the earlier dream? If you slept 10 minutes and then entered a dream,
I probably wouldn't call it a WILD - but if you immediately knew it was
a dream and you were aware that you were sleeping during those 10 minutes
of sleep, you might call it a WILD.
Some WILDs are very brief. Others are dark in the beginning and light
only gradually kicks in. There can be stops and starts - many returns
to the dream, but the level of awareness in comparison with waking awareness
is often higher than in DILDs.
<Robert> If you were talking to an intermediate lucid dreamer, what are some of the principles or guidelines that you would suggest to operate successfully in the lucid dream environment?
<Ruth> One thing - it is important to understand that many waking life rules don't apply in dreams. Such realization can help the dreamer become more fully lucid (aware of his/her state). Amusing things occur when a person is only partially lucid. An example - after becoming lucid, a dreamer may worry about finding the key to lock the dream office door before leaving the building. That's a pretty crude example, but these kinds of confusions occur frequently in lucid dreams.
I would also advise studying the role suggestion and expectation play in the creation of dream imagery. Read the lucid dreams of as many people as possible, noting different styles from your own and different outlooks. Don't jump to conclusions from your own experience alone. Try new things in your lucid dreams, experiment, and of course, enjoy lucidity.
<Robert> Tell us about a lucid dream that "surprised" you - what was that like?
<Ruth> Some people imagine that there is total conscious control in lucid dreams, but that is rarely, if ever, so. As in non-lucid dreams, some images can be downright surprising - one has no idea what might have suggested them. I included a dream with an unexpected image in LDE 13:
August 1-2 1999
I re-enter a dream lucid and after talking to a woman, decide to "exercise"
my bad leg by dream running and also practice better breathing. I run
around a grassy field several times. As I run I discover tiny creeks with
small bridges across parts of the field. Then, to my surprise, on the
bridges or on the ground beside the bridges are very Catholic-looking
images of the suffering Jesus (that is, Jesus dying or just having died
on the cross -- I was raised religiously, but not as a Roman Catholic).
I may have unintentionally stepped on one image. In the dream, I don't
know how to respond to these unexpected images that seem somewhat alien
to my own spirituality. I leave the field and interact with the woman
I had spoken to earlier. I don't recall any of the dialogue.
<Robert> What did you make of this lucid dream later?
<Ruth> This dream puzzled me because I couldn't see what suggestion might have created such an image. It seemed unrelated to my efforts to "run" and practice better breathing. I thought perhaps this dream had some meaning and tried to tease it out. After three years, though, I am still not completely sure what to make of the dream. As dreamers, we can be glad our dreams offer surprises and frequently elude pat interpretations. Because of the unexpected image, this dream stays in my mind better than most of the lucid dreams I have had.
<Robert> Is there any advice that you think would be helpful for readers of the LDE?
<Ruth> In addition to all that I have said in this interview, I would remind dreamers that, in the West at least, the art and science of dreams and especially lucid dreaming is very young. We are in the early stages of learning. It is very easy to jump to all kinds of conclusions without sufficient evidence. It is best to keep exploring, comparing results with others, while withholding excessive judgments. Nonetheless, this is an exciting time for lucid dreamers. We are the pioneers!
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